There has been a lot of talk about problems with CGC grading and the new case causing issues. I was sent this video that explains the problem and shows off a ton of books that have issues.
Like a video of a car accident, some of the damage to books in the video are cringe-worthy. CGC has been silent on the issue of the cases and are “re-holdering” books for customers, but a lot of people feel it is too little too late.
CBCS has offered 20% off of regrading CGC books with the issues.
The main issues people are complaining about are as follows:
“Newton Rings” -oily looking spots on the case where the Mylar that surround the books and the holder come into contact.
“Creep Engine” – (would be an awesome band name) where the comics inside bunch up together causing waviness. This is a result of force on the outside causing the book inside to move.
Here is the video that best explains the issue:
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Informed Comic Book Speculation and Pop Culture News
I haven’t had any waviness on my books with the new cases, but there are Newton rings. I had that happen with the old case too and it was explained to me that it’s an optical prism effect from the inner mylar which doesn’t damage the book. Just going by what I was told on the CGC boards.
However, since I mainly slab newer moderns, one huge problem with the new case is that it’s so tight up against the books that it creates staple rub marks
So, if the label says 9.8, leave it as is
Thanks Lonzilla. I know the Newton Rings do not hurt the books but some of them have been large and unsightly. The staple rub and waviness looks like it can and has damaged the books. Some of the keys and gold and silver age books make me worry.
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Definitely! Those two books I showed you that are signed by Stan Lee are out getting graded now. If they come back damaged I’ll be extremely upset. How do you think they can replace rare golden age PCH books? Can’t be easy.
The problem with offering to fix the books are that they’re just putting them back into a new faulty case, creating a never ending loop of problems. The biggest point to note is that if you just got your books back and they look perfect now, the creep slowly sets in and waves the books within a few weeks. I personally saw this with two of my books. Looked perfect, put it away and only pulled it out after hearing about the issues. As a CGC fan, this has been pretty troubling. I really hope that they can fix it quickly. For the hobby’s sake.
Agreed.
I had same experience. Major wave appeared on a book I got back approx 45 days ago. Looked great at first. Does anyone think this will put A black mark on CGC same as what happened to PGX?
It is a new case and maybe just some bugs need worked out , I am quick to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but I must admit that this is worrisome
Depends if the get in front of this (a little late now) or actually fix the problem (not sure it can be fixed, the case that is).
I have a ASM 300 in the new case, but I haven’t had a chance to check it yet. The bad part is that if a person isn’t plugged in to the collecting community online, he or she probably has no idea about the issues because CGC won’t really address it.
I see CBCS gaining a lot of new customers. It will be interesting to see if CBCS graded books meet or surpass the value of CGC because of this.
Hmmm! I just received a comic this very morning fresh back from CGC. Opened the box and checked for the waves displayed in the video and sure enough – my Fantastic Four #52 is now wavy. Grrrr!!!
That’s horrible. I am sorry to hear that.
That truly sucks! This may come out wrong but I hope it was a lower grade as to where this won’t take too much value off of it.
They knew about this going into Philly Wizardworld 2 weeks ago and make a killing as usual with onsite grading fees. There’s a long thread on the CGC boards about problems with the new case, but CGC is choosing to play ignorant and leave things as they are
The board moderators killed that thread.
Scott I would suggest you post a picture of the book on the CGC site (specifically in the This Week Back From CGC strand )
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2233823#Post2233823. This documents the problem and will probably get you an email from CGC on what you can do to rectify the issue.
Glad i use pgx for all my grading
Not sure that is always the best way to go. Lol
For newer books I don’t see an issue with PGX…but older, especially silver and gold, those book just don’t hold the same value as CGC…Who knows, that may change a bit after this. I don’t have many PGX graded books but the ones I have seem very accurate and the holders are pretty good as well.
I have many slabbed books by all three main companies, and I have personally found arguments against PGX grading / service quality to be nonsense. It has no more or less discrepancies, despite the accusations of CGC fanboys. Service is cheaper than the others, but in exchange you do not get the nifty cataloging that you would with CGC or CBCS. As for the value of the book being more or less with one versus the other, I have stopped figuring in inflated values for my books based on encapsulation…to me the book value is the books normal value according to the grade, plus the cost of slabbing services incurred, and nothing else. So the choice of service provider is irrelevant to the value, except to the sap who imagines a difference.
That said, of all the books I have slabbed so far, the only one I have seen these kinds of issues with is my copy of X-Men 94, a CGC SS slab signed by Stan the Man. It clearly has a case of the Newton Rings which had me concerned early on. I have yet to see any of these issues with PGX or CBCS books. For me, shipping costs for CBCS are ridiculously prohibitive (they nail you hard for shipping to Canada, it seems), and given consistent issues with CGC, it looks like I will have to rely upon PGX, which is fine by me. I just wish they would adopt a more appealing and informative book label…
Great points and thank you for bringing them up
Some of the cases in the video look like the older CGC cases. When did CGC change cases? When should we be concerned? I started using CBCS about a year and a half ago because I was upset with CGC for a number of reasons. This just makes me mad.
They changed cases a couple of months back as they could no longer get the plastic from the same dealer. The new cases are very similar to CBCS cases now.
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But CBCS doesn’t seem to have this issue correct?
Correct
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So its just similar in appearance and not materials?
Wow! That is just awful!!! I can’t believe CGC didn’t fully test these cases before they allowed books potentially worth up to tens of thousands (some even more) in them! Very disconcerting! The last book I got graded was a little while ago when when Stan Lee was doing a signing locally so I decided to have him sign my Avengers #1. That book was graded and sent to me about a week and a half before they switched tot he new cases. Glad I missed the cut-out for those new cases! Off subject for a second; what is the main difference between the new and the old cases? Regardless, My book is in no way investment grade so some “waviness” may not have taken the grade down too much but that is far from beside the point! Just knowing a book might get damaged is enough to make me think twice about CGC’s professionalism. From what I see in the videos if not all, most of the damage looks like it can be reversed with a perfectly done pressing, but again that is beside the point. Pressing isn’t perfect and will rarely take care of every single issue 100%. Some of the new damage may remain. The only reason I went with CGC for the Stan Lee singing was because the dealer that set it up only uses CGC. Since the emergence of CBCS I have only used them. Their customer service for me anyway has been wonderful and I think they have the best holder out of the three main grading companies! Looks like I will be sticking with them. I’m curious how CGC is going to respond to this and what they are going to offer those affected. I hope what they offer is generous to those who now have to deal with the issue first hand.
The old cases have an inner space that the comic book resides in. It allows the book to live within the case without pressure being applied to it.
The new cases have one giant inner space that spans the entire area between the cases’s front and back. The comic book inside is placed between two sheets of Mylar and then held in place with pressure.
Oh, I can see where that sounds appealing for the sake of preservation, but apparently it wasn’t thought out well enough and/or tested.
Three words Class Action Lawsuit. Bye bye CGC
Very well could be… This will not be good for them in the short term at least!
They can avoid such things by addressing them and taking care of anyone who’s comic is damaged due to the cases.
I’m not big on getting comics graded and slabbed, most of mine (the ones worthy of them) are safely tucked away in their very expensive archival grade mylar bags with full archival grade backing boards.. (yeah, I buy the expensive ones too, the ones that don’t turn all dingy yellow and brittle either). 🙂
That’s crazy. I was going to send my NM 98 out and put in the new case ( since the case that it’s in has a lot scratches) but now I am going to wait till they fix this problem before I do that. Thanks Tony you saved me a black hair from turning white lol.
I had a problem with a Green Lantern #87 I bought from mycomicshop.com. They insured me that there was no problem with the comic. After reading this, I now know better. Is there a class action lawsuit against cgc or sellers yet?
Not yet. I am sure one is coming
The other big problem with the new cases is that most of the comics come back completely slanted or off center. I just got back about 50 books from CGC a few days ago, and over half are crooked. I dont know if this is from faulty positioning in the beginning or if they shifted in transit. I doubt they shifted since it is almost impossible to “tap” the comics back into place like you could with the old style holders. I will only be purchasing the old (middle revision) style holders for my personal collection from now on until they fix this
Damn!!! Looks like I’m going to be regretting getting my books graded at Wizard Con Philly 2 weeks ago ?
Maybe not. Not every book will have this issue, it just sucks you have to be stressed out over it. You may just want tot eat a little bit of extra cost and have them re-slabbed/graded at CBCS before any of the waviness potentially sets in…a “just in case” precaution.
I guess Cgc can’t afford a quality control person to make sure it’s all good before it goes out.
Also if they knew about changing of the supplier and its new resin (plastic) this is something I’m sure you can ask and see the variance between both of them.
If they had a QC person he would have done that test.
Yeah, it seems as though their “QC” was just making sure that comics fit the new cases. I hope this becomes a lesson learned for the entire industry.
I have been hearing about this for a while, but these are the first pictures I have seen of the damage done, it’s terrible. I just sent some books off to be graded by CBCS, but I’m still nervous about that I don’t like parting with my books. What is the whole process when you send books to be graded, how long does it take, do they send you emails?
I have sent numerous books off to CBCS. The regular process I never have done. I have always fast passes my books. The regular process takes about 90 days. Fast pass takes about 30 days
They do send you emails.
I understand your point completely. I never like sending my books away either. I do have to say I like CBCS quite a bit! I like the grading… If not always spot on very close to what I was expecting… and the cases are great! I prefer the cases to the point when I am looking to buy a graded book in the wild or online I would rather they are graded by CBCS. With that I have sent books in for the standard tier of time. They were books I was not looking to sell so the time frame didn’t bother me, but it will take up to three months for standard as pointed out by Anthony. Right before the first time that I sent books in and right after CBCS first opened for business I gave them a call and pretty much asked them why I should use their service. They were polite, professional and gave me a thorough run down of their policies and how they do everything within their power to keep your book safe while it is in their possession. Sold me on it. You should do the same if you have the time. Also, since accidents or shipping errors do happen, make sure you insure your books for about 15 to 20% more than full, fair market value or excepted fair market value of the book. Since they will have them for a while, if something does happen before it gets back to and the book increased in price during that time you should be covered. Also, pack very, very secure! As bulletproof as possible without going overboard, damaging the books. We all know how the post office and other services can be careless. Hope some of this helps.
Completely off topic but mmcomics.com has all their August rebirth and DC stuff 50% off for preorders. Just ordered 16 copies of Harley Quinn #1 at half cover price!!! Not to mention multiple sets of both A and B covers for all of Augusts Rebirth including Suicide Squad. These Harley and Suicide Squad books will be hot in August with the movie and all! and at 50% off your already guaranteed making money by flipping these.
I ordered 74 books my shipping was $12.95
My shipping was 9.95 no matter what I ordered so I’m ordering 20 books for 39.95 2$ per book delivered to my front door thanks Alana.
Nice.
And for a newb, what’s the difference? A more thorough page by page grading? I’ve thought about getting books graded, but look at their website and I guess I don’t understand everything about it including some of the pricing. Been awhile since I looked, but I thought I saw something about fair market value? Is that a grading % based on the books value?
I haven’t even seen a slabbed book up close in person so I have no idea what they look like. I’ve seen graded baseball cards, but besides getting a universal “grade” which is like an appraisal but won’t vary from dealer to dealer, it’s hard for me to understand the appeal. Are they really that much better at archival then someone who takes really good care of their collection and re bags and boards every so often as needed?
Honestly, if you take good care of your books you really don’t need to have them graded for the protection. I will say I like how the CBCS holders look and feel. They are very sturdy! What the grading helps with is not just securing the book but also helping secure the value. Since professional grading is impartial and there are restoration checks when the book is slabbed you know exactly what you have and if you decide to sell, it helps get a premium, especially if it is a key book! Professional grading also helps if you decide to have your comic collection insured. Remember, most home owner polices do not cover comic book collections and most collectibles for that matter. I would imagine part of the percentage of the price charged in regard to to the fair market value of the book helps with insurance costs (as well as other costs) since they have to be able to replace anything that gets destroyed or damaged under their care… until this issue I haven’t heard of that happening but it is obviously a possibility.
I personally don’t send my comics off to get graded. I own a few myself if and when the price is right though.
My take on when you should get your comics graded:
1. Authenticate the comic is genuine (mostly applies to older comics).
2. Grade to easily add value to the comic (insurance reasons or to sell later).
3. To identify if the comic has been tampered with or altered. This is mostly for older comics and not moderns. Getting your comic graded will identify any techniques used to restore the comic from it’s original condition, which can lower the value for some people but if done right can up the value some. Just depends on what was restored, etc.
When you should not get your comics graded:
1. Your mostly a reader but still collect.
2. You don’t sell comics.
3. You don’t care about your home owners “lump sum” insurance policy to replace specific valuables or personal items. Like ocguy72 stated, getting comics graded can make it easier to get the money for replacement in case of theft or damage, etc. If not, then your stuck with your policies generic value they set forth in replacing personal items. I think my own home owners insurance covers like 50k for personal stuff if house burns down, etc.
4. You like to touch your comics and read them again later.
5. You trust yourself in maintaining a healthy environment for your comics to keep them safe. (I keep the ones more valuable in archival mylar with full backing boards that are archive quality. I also keep it cool and very dry, I use moisture absorbing silica where I store them to absorb moisture and humidity).
Yup. All of my recently submitted comics waving. FF45-46, FF67, etc. anyone going to hold off from submitting now until issue is resolved? CGC should cover all replacement cost, cover cost of sending to CCS for pressing first too! Cowards need to issue a statement!!!
Call CGC and frankly be a jerk about it “if” you feel they are trying to blow you off…Of course don’t go overboard but let them know you aren’t going anywhere and they need to own up to what has happened! Do you have picks of the books? If it is only waviness and/or very light creasing a good pressing may be all these need. I’ve seen pressing do wonders for books with slight moister/waviness or creasing that doesn’t break color. Good luck with everything!
O.K., so I am at Denver Comic Con this weekend, and they have both CGC and CBCS there. So, after seeing that video, I would seemingly be a fool to get them graded with CGC, I should go with CBCS. Has anyone done a comparison for sales between the 2 services?
CGC seems to fair better in sales, most will go with CGC if they can. But perhaps with these new cases and if GCG continues to ignore the problem, they’ll be some better competition out there.
Yeah…CBCS has a god chance at gaining market share from this. It may not be long before realized sales even up if this issue with CGC doesn’t get fixed.
There really is only one answer and that is to stop sending books to CGC. The new case is a failed design. This pressure based encapsulation damages books; the prism rings get worse over time and the mylar sheets develop waves that get passed on to the books. CGC won’t “fix” this unless they abandon the design.
This makes me think of how older screwdowns for sports cards used to be, when they were two thick, flat pieces of plastic (not sure what they’re made of) with no recessed area for the card to sit in like modern ones do. When you sandwiched the card between the halves and screwed them in place, you almost always get that “watermark” effect on the corners and the edges, and the tighter you screwed the halves together the more noticeable it was. Just like on these new CGC cases. What sucked was when you opened these screwdowns sometimes the card surface would stick to the inner plastic surface and even peel off the card. CGC places mylar sheets between the outer comic and shell to prevent surface sticking.
Even when I saw the video CGC released introducing this new shell I questioned then whether it was a good idea. Even if they solve the “watermark” and warping issues, if the shell cracks over the comic from a fall or whatever, for me theres no protecting the comic. I liked the extra protection you got from the inner pocket in the old slabs. Its like CGC is trying to fix whats not broken.
I was going to send my first few comics off but it seems to be a minefield of risk. Think I’ll hold for now !
Latest: It appears that the pressure MAY, that’s may be causing the staples to indent the comic and there is fear that they may over time even start to show indentations all the way to the cover. Please be aware that there is a lot of hysteria floating around about the new cases, and that there may be shills from CGC’s competition out there posting misinformation to discredit CGC. Take all information you see with a grain of sand .
Interesting. What is that from. Considering I own both CGC and CBCS graded books I wouldn’t consider myself a shill for the “other guys”
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New strand at CGC site with photos. Not calling anyone a shill …. That was only a comment that everyone should read posts knowing that the mob mentality is in full effect..
Hey Simon I didn’t want you to think that I thought you were calling Me a shill I just wanted to comment that I am not a shill since I own both companies books
But, based on what is seen in that video and other pictures I do think people have the right to be worried. I know some people some really rare books in right now, and they’re terrified
When I first saw the video, I thought it was made from a PGX/CBCS loyalist. Shill crap at it’s finest. FYI: I only send books to CGC.
Upon hearing this news of cases bending and books waving, I checked my recent books I received from CGC (with the new cases). And yes, quite a few have these issues.
I will be contacting CGC on Monday.
salt
We are good bud, and yes people should be worried, I am 🙁 . The lack of communication, and the continual denial of any issue on these cases from CGC is not helping. With the CGC debacle , Hastings fail, and the great Terry Hoknes leaving us….. Well its just one hellva bad week in our industry
It’s funny I just mentioned to several people that there are a lot of angry people in comics this week and a lot of hurt feelings.
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I have huge batch out right now: 153… Also, have a hunch stored that are the new case, I need to check if they have problems a little closer. The ones I’ve pulled for eBay sales have been fine so far… No problems yet but I’ll be checking more closely…
Check upper edge of comic for waves….. weekly for a few months
Check just to right of staples for bumps, and black / grey spots
I was at Denver Comic Con yesterday. CBCS & CGC were both scheduled to be there. I saw CBCS, but no sign of CGC. I may have missed them though. Can anyone else confirm this. I will be back on Sunday. If they are there, I will see what they have to say. My assumption is that they pulled out to avoid dealing with the situation publicly. Wish I heard about this earlier…excited to hear what the CBCS folks have to say about this whole situation.
This is huge if true , can someone confirm please
And if they are there, and I missed them, how many faulty slabs are being purchased at the Con. It’s sold out today and expecting well over 100,000 people. If they are there, they would be knowingly flooding the market full of faulty products. People spend big bucks to get those books signed (Uh…Stan Lee…). Not to mention spending half their experience at the Con waiting in line for that momento. I can’t imagine trustingly handing that over for certification, while someone looks you in the eye and takes your money knowing they were screwing you. I’m sorry to anyone who sent books in to get graded. Can you still get your books back if you just submitted? I know there is a long wait and a lot of you guys could have your books sitting on their shelves. I would look into that before it’s too late.
Also, be careful when flipping. It would suck to sell a bunch of these faulty slabs, only to get them returned and then be stuck with them. Whole situation sucks.
Good point about having books just sent in returned before they get graded!
You Missed Them. CGC is at Denver !
If CGC happens to make it through this alive, and changes the case design I wonder if these cases will be collectible in their own right. I currently have 23 books at cgc was planning on sending 10 batman 1s but might have to wait til I see these new cases first hand. Really unfortunate because I’ve been using cgc for years. I truly am a cgc fan.
So does “Creep Engine” occur from the bag being wavy or pressure on the outside. I ask because I wedge 2 books in my toploaders bagged and boarded back to back and sometimes the bags get a wrinkle when going in on the front. Will the wrinkle in the bag translate to damage in the future?
Or is creep engine specific to cgc cases?
Peeps, most cases use a well, a space, that a comic sits in, That can result in comics sliding around and getting… well lets just call it damage.CGC new cases use pressure and sheets of mylar to hold the book in place. problem is that pressure is resulting in things they didn’t expect. They are having movement of the book due to uneven pressure, and may be seeing damage to thicker areas of the book (spine, staples). The case as is sucks, and their response to what is happening is unprofessional and well just plain juvenile . That said, CGC is still the most recognized go to place to get your book graded and if you think this is going to bury them you work for another grading company. Do not send any books to them till you are comfortable with their product
I think it is specific. But always keep an eye on them.
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Alana it’s because the pressure is uneven, it’s in spots rather than across the entire face of the book, it’s focused towards the sides, and that causes the book to wave away from the pressure towards the middle. Imagine this , take a book and start pressing down on it with two fingers on each hand , what you imagine will happen does, the cover waves,And before you ask, if the pressure was across the entire face, the n rings ( oil slicks) as a result would get far worse..it’s a push here gets worse here situation
This is is an issue far far bigger companies than CGC have tried to deal with. There is no simple answer, it is not a fix situation
Yup, I spoke with the people at the CGC Booth on Friday night. I was going to bring them my first ever books to slab, but saw the video on chu.net that night. So glad I saw it. Took 6 books to CBCS, instead. I am not a confrontational type of person, so I didn’t address the issue directly with CGC, plus, CBCS was cheaper, so, no complaints. I don’t mind the extended wait time, it is happening with both CGC and CBCS. I do not pay extra to expedite the process. I appreciate all the chu.net family, and respect the opinions I’ve been hearing. Thank ya!
Thanks John
Question does any one know if the waving was already on the book prior to sending it to get slabed? I mean I have bought books to read and they have waves on them. Could this just be some people expecting for the waves to go away once they get pressed and slabed and seeing that they do and later they come back? Any thoughts?
Just checked my books… 200+ and counting with waves developing… This is do F’ed up! What are we going to do?
Wow. That is a lot. I would contact CGC about fixing them and would not allow the damage to continue. I do like CGC and don’t want people to think I am bashing, but am very leery at the moment about sending books into them n
Yeah I have a bunch out there and another 150 or so ready… This sucks…
@krw keep us posted on what they tell you when you call them.
Wow, I am truly sorry that is happening to your books! Are any from the old slabs or just the new ones?
Krw I would suggest you post a picture of the book on the CGC site (specifically in the This Week Back From CGC strand )
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2233823#Post2233823. This documents the problem and will probably get you an email from CGC on what you can do to rectify the issue.
I’m starting to put some things together and think that CHU is working on a bit of a bias. I have had a horrible experience with CBCS so far with them being completely clueless when it comes to their turnaround times. I have since requested my profile on the CBCS forum be deleted due to the ridiculous CGC hate and the foolishly blind CBCS apologists.
I went to the Heroes Con in Charlotte last week and had a very in depth discussion with a CGC rep concerning these issues. They actually had another rep there solely dedicated to assisting customers with the new case issues. The waviness is due to the mylite/mylar..whichever it is..being cut too wide. They showed me examples of the waviness and answered all questions I had. They were hardly silent on the matter. They had a large group of people there dropping off books but still took the time to speak to me.
I then attempted to visit the CBCS booth to see if I could have a real conversation regarding a realistic expectation of my books being returned to me. I stood around for a bit with only 3-4 other people there. The reps there seemed to be stuck in this frantic busy mode even though not much of anything was going on. I overheard a discussion with another collector and after the 3rd “I don’t know we’ll have to check on that too”, I walked off.
I despise that I have been put in a position to actually defend CGC but the message board and online chatterboxes are getting far out of hand with this one.
I may very well never get grades again, but if I do it will likely be with CGC and definitely not with CBCS.
Hi Howie. I appreciate your comments. But I do not think saying “hey look, here is an issue” and showing a video someone else put together showing examples is showing a bias. I use CBCS for quick serve flip books and use CGC for more key books (because of the selling difference in price) I think that is pretty un-biased.
Well, just this afternoon a friend of mine had a 9.8 sig series returned from CGC. The slab was destroyed on one corner. Hard to fault CGC because the packaging seemed bomb-proof…but USPS will always find a way it seems.
I don’t think I can trust anyone to grade my books at this point. Serious question marks from CGC and CBCS. The only company that seems to not have issues other than resale value is PGX. Such a shame that public opinion, right or wrong, dictates who is actually doing quality work.
PGX is what I would go with just for price point alone + available in house pressing before slabbing. It shouldn’t cost an arm and leg to slab a book and PGX understands that unlike the others. PGX gets a bad wrap because it’s the first to challenge CGC. And longtime CGC collectors didn’t like another company moving in and doing the work for cheap and a fixed price instead of on a sliding scale based on market value. CGC has always seemed scammy to me because it doesn’t have fixed prices. I still collect CGC books on the secondary market but have never sent one in myself for grading.
A few years ago pgx swapped out a tmnt 1 first print for a third print and labeled it first print….they never bounced back from that. The owner video taped cracking it out of the slab. You can YouTube the video.
I saw that video and almost cried along with him. Not sure how the story ended though.
I actually followed up on the video, at first they offered him the value that he had on the invoice when submitting it. He stuck to his guns and refused that offer and they ended up replacing the book.
I call shenanigans on that TMNT #1 deal. I won’t go into a lot of detail because it was forever ago, and there is plenty of other factors working to the detriment of PGX…but I think the book, at the very best, was mislabeled and he capitalized on it. I blame the guy, not PGX on that one.
I never got into CGC. I’ve never had them grade a book for me, and the only CGC book I own is an X-men (1991)#1 that I bought on eBay dirt cheap just to have one CGC book in my collection. I don’t like the trend of considering that the average collector cannot grade their own book; and that sites like eBay constantly push in their pre-filled information that a CGC graded book is “more accurate” than a non-CGC graded book, as if collectors hadn’t been grading their own books for decades. And with respect to the idea that CGC grading “guarantees” that the book remains in the same condition forever, since it can’t be removed from the case… you now see people nit-picking the condition of the case. If there are scuff marks on the plastic or any imperfections, they have to be disclosed; and now it’s become burdensome to some sellers to maintain the condition of the case instead of the condition of the book. You shift focus from one thing to another, when I’d much rather worry about the condition of a Book than to be collecting books sealed in cases and worrying about the condition of the Cases. And now seeing that CGC is having issues with the cases in general, this is a whole other obstacle I am sure I will be hearing more of now.
A couple of fairly valid concerns in there, but I think I see it a little differently. and from the other side of the coin.
I am not sure that there is necessarily an insinuation that a given collector is incapable of grading accurately. Instead, I think there is value in obtaining a neutral third-party “professional” grade, Having purchased from so many various sources out there over the years, one thing that I can say for sure is that there are far too many people who have come to grade, advertise and sell their books according to VERY liberal standards, almost always citing the subjectivity of grading. Over time you develop reliable sources to reply upon, but with many instances of having been burnt along the way. “Professional” grading services are that guarantee that you are not being taken advantage of, and I for one appreciate it…particularly as a frequent eBayer. And those who are not as confident in grading themselves should be able to appreciate the surety of their purchase. Of course, this is dependent on the condition of the case, which leads to another of your points.
“Nitpicking” the slab case tends to fall in two categories. The first, and more easily criticized (although not with any absolute validity) is that the person want the case to be in as close to pristine condition as possible, similar to the condition many collectors want their books in. I, for one, am not this nitpicky…but I don’t necessarily fault those who are. Whatever the concern, whether it is displayability that sctatches, etc. distract from, or geniune case security integrity concerns, or whatever, it is their dollar…what they want in exchange for that dollar is between them and the seller to agree or disagree upon. The second and more important issue is where damage to the case leads to suspicion of tampering, thereby negating a primary purpose of encapsulation, that the grade received is indeed a valid neutral third-party assessment that applies to the book encased. Call that into question, and there is little point to the entire exercise.
Personally, I take comfort in buying slabbed books. As long as the case integrity is solid, I know that I am getting what I paid for and not being left to the sellers interpretation of grading. As I said, I’ve gotten burnt that way too many times (there is only so much you can do to inspect a book according to pictures posted to an eBay item), and I have seen more than a few long-time comic shop owners who grade and price with very subjective standards that always seem designed to maximize their asking price rather than provide any surety to the customer. I don’t always agree w/ the grading of CGC, PGX et al., but on the whole they are, in my experience, solid enough that I can rely upon them in their services. As for the “guarantees” that encapsulation implies, I see it quite simply: The integrity of the case reasonably guarantees the integrity of the third-party grade, and although there are occasional instances where encapsulation has caused some minor damage to books (the main topic of the thread, no less), on the overwhelming whole it provides far superior protection than bagging with poly or mylar bags, which I believe is another primary purpose of the entire exercise.
I have no beef with the enterprise on the whole. In fact, I welcome it. Now the preposterous idea of the superiority, and for some, infallibility of CGC, that is another thing. These guys have dominated and enjoyed a perceived status that they have not entirely merited for far too long, all on that backs of a rabid fan base that seems to me to be guided by less than objective critique…and I say this as an owner of quite a few CGC graded books with which I have no qualms.
Awesome response. Thank you for taking the time out.
To follow up on the issue I posted with my friends damaged slab.
He shared with me that CGC was very professional in their response to him, are rectifying the issue at no cost to him and are expediting the process.
I don’t mean to promote or argue what service is better or worse. I just feel presently that CBCS is being given a lot of leeway while CGC is getting raked over the coals. I understand the general position against CGC. I understand the desire to see CBCS succeed. I just want the both to be based in reality and not exaggerated by online chatter.
I agree that CBCS is currently lacking a critique to levels of CGC and PGX, which should make consumers slightly wary. I would offer, however, that CGC has yet to be “raked over the coals” even close to the degree that PGX has, and they have benefited from that disparity for some time now, so I have little sympathy. Not that I hate CGC…I think they are on the whole a fine company, although a bit punitive to the wallet of the customer in comparison, and I appreciate their service. For that reason, and because they have received far less scrutiny by the community than they have deserved, I am all for an objective cost / benefit analysis as well as staunch marketplace competition that can only benefit the consumer. In short, “I just want the both to be based in reality and not exaggerated by online chatter” sums my own thoughts up perfectly.
Absolutely agree 100%. I don’t think much of any entity outside of Planned Parenthood has come under as much scrutiny as PGX.
Yet they stay in business. So it keeps me on my skeptical toes as far as public opinion goes.
I think that people in this response thread are completely missing the point. No one has said “CGC Sucks” just to disparage the company or make it look bad. One of the commentors above, Jesus, said he has 200+ books with waves. That is not a comment about the company, it is purely reporting that there is a problem here, and it will not be fixed tomorrow or next week, and it is genuinely and actively destroying the condition of the books, and people are losing books to a poor design. Sorry, but, it just seems like y’all are ignoring that. It’s not about bad mouthing a company, it’s about damage that’s being witnessed, and the damage stays beyond simply cracking the case. My apologies, if I am wrong.
No, that would be correct…it’s just that the main topic has veered a little bit, as they tend to do from time to time.
I do believe CGC will be issuing a statement. The rumor goes that they will be redesigning the case again.
I don’t think you are wrong by any means. CGC has made a poor decision in changing their cases. But some folks are stating that CGC is ignoring the matter and doing nothing, which in what I’ve witnessed is entirely untrue.
I see a distinct pattern in many online posts regarding CGC. Its either they are doing nothing, or its a post stating they don’t mind wait times and have gone to CBCS. Its amazing to me how complete strangers can post the the same thing, almost verbatim, over and over again.
Just some information regarding my experience for CBCS at the moment. They have slowly crept up the turnaround time, but it is consistently inaccurate. The last I looked they are running at a 10-12 day business day delay on Modern tier. I am going to be at least a 16 business day and that is if my books miraculously arrive tomorrow. So at the very least they are operating at a 16-18 day delay on Modern. People say it’s difficult to judge, but I’m just some random schmuck and I have been saying their stated delay has been off by 2-4 business days at least since they posted delays.
If I can post it, so can CBCS. Just to keep some perspective, when they reach a 20 business day delay, and they likely will if they haven’t already, that is about an actual month. That is a substantial amount of time to miss the mark.
Yeah, that was the other deterrent to me using CBCS…I’ve yet to hear any reports of the having actually shipped on time. They should have adjusted their turnaround times a long, long time ago…at this point it is just blatantly false advertisement. Were they a class act interested in being a quality company, they would be compensating the customer for failing to meet their advertised times. Interestingly, and I’m not shilling here – I promise, the first time I shipped to PGX my books arrived three days after the projected date, or in other words, it exceeded the expected turnaround by three days. Then again, I had special services being provided (signature authentication and pressing) for a few of the books, and PGX clearly states that this will extend the timetable. I was very pleased with the experience overall, which I have detailed here: https://sanerant7.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/recent-snags-4-modest-pgx-haul/
They actually do compensate the customers for late shipping books. I have had fast passed books come back quickly and slightly over their stated times. Every book that comes back over the stated time comes with a refund for up to 5% of the price in the form of credit. (Not shilling just stating experience) I also like their 2 day service for $35 I think it is to get graded moderns to the market quickly.
Great post you did. I read it and poked around your site some.
I fast pass everything I have submitted to them and have had the books back in less than a calendar month. Haven’t submitted to them in a while though. When they have been late I have gotten credit to use on other grading orders.
No worries about me thinking of you as shilling…I could easily be accused of doing the same for PGX, which I would absolutely deny.
I find the fast-track service a very useful option, particularly for those who want to turn the book over to the market rapidly, but like most collectors I have no such needs. For this reason, I personally could not justify paying twice the service fees for the option…it’s just too much of an indulgence (and detracts from the profit margin 😉 ). I’m glad it’s available, although I will likely never use it.
As for the compensation you mention, I was unaware of it. I think I am slightly divided though. On the one hand, I think I would appreciate it a little, but only because something is better than nothing. On the other hand however, it seems such a horribly paltry compensation. Please don’t misunderstand…I am not one of those guys looking to get over or who wants something for nothing. But using your example of the $35 track for a single book, the compensation would be $1.75 which would have to be applied to the next submission? So the next time you send a book in to be returned to you late, it will only cost you $33.25 rather than $35? Again, something is better than nothing, but this seems like an almost insulting pat on the head rather than any kind of an apology, and I cannot see how it possibly acts as an incentive for them to correct the problem that has existed from the inception of the company.
What they need to do is adjust their advertised turnaround tables to reflect their reality, rather than leave the misleading figures up. These are posted for consumer comparison with other companies so they can make a selection…let’s be honest about the real figures and let the consumer make the choice of service provider with factual information.
And I am not hating on CBCS here…I promise. If their shipping was not so outrageous, and if some of the special services were not so much more expensive than I can find elsewhere, I would certainly consider using them. But just as CGC is starting to be held more and more accountable (finally!), CBCS has some corrections to make as well. All the while, PGX continues to operate modestly, with competitive services, pricing and relatively on-time (often ahead of schedule)…just sayin’. Please read the first sentence again 😉
No worries. We are having an open and honest conversation about a topic that not everyone sees eye to eye on. I totally agree that CBCS needs to be open and honest on turn around times. The one thing people do not consider is that if the staff is out at a convention, those days are not considered a “business day”. That is one of the things that catch people off guard. What they could do is make a calendar that shows exactly what is considered a work day and what isn’t. From there it would be easier to calculate the days it will be expected to take to grade the book. I also do not think you think I am shilling for CBCS nor do I think you are shilling for PGX. You have brought up a lot of valid points.
The thing I have appreciated about everyone involved in the conversation is how civil it has been. We are all adults and are able to have differing opinions on the topic with out resorting to name calling or childish displays.
I have been very happy with the service of CBCS and CGC and have never tried PGX. But it makes me think that a lot of moderns could be quickly and cheaply grades and encapsulated by them as there is no worrying about detecting restoration, which you mentioned in your post.
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A business day is a business day. Its CBCS that is trying to twist the criteria.
I am aware of the convention day stipulation, but that is not clearly posted on their site. That was not learned until I joined their forum, which I subsequently my profile deleted.
It’s just shady.
Yeah…good point about the conventions vs. “business days” issue. I hadn’t even thought of that, but it is certainly a more than valid point. And I agree about the civility thus far…much different from the trash that happens on sites like Bleating Tool (Bleeding Cool), where I often devolve into mud-slinging as well.
If you have moderns to slab…there is no question that you should send them of to PGX. The only downside is that there are still some out there who consider them somehow inferior, and that can impact the number of potential buyers. On the other hand, the markup is less, and there are still plenty of buyers out there who know that there is no reasonable difference. Food for thought, if selling is your thing. If you’re up on eBay, give me your seller name…I buy there all the time..if you have reasonably priced books, I’ll look out for your PGX slabs 😉
Check the eBay tab. Usually priced slightly below market costs.
I must be dim, Anthony. I’m not seeing an eBay tab, even under your profile.
Up at the top under the logo.
I got my reslabbed comic today. It’s still wavy and still has Newton effects. Pressure on the comic without an inner well damages the comic. Now they tell me the book is naturally wavy. I’m boycotting CGC and when there’s a class action lawsuit I’m In as well as anyone else that has had their comics damaged because of CGCs new defective slab design. All the new slabs are defective.
This issue really scares me with some CGC graded comics that I have purchase through ebay, if there is a class action lawsuit, is it possible that I’ll be able to get compensation for the lost value of these comics?
Just thought I would add something here: My own experience with Newton RIngs (which I mentioned somewhere above) is for a book that was slabbed by CGC a long time before the period when they were using new cases and/or techniques or whatever. So the Newton Ring issue is not necessarily isolated to those dates, although perhaps more prevalent. To continue my previous rant, this is one of the things that caused me to realize that CGC is far from as infallible as they have seemingly been made out to be by many of their rabid fans, and what caused me to seriously investigate claims for or against alternative service providers. I will continue to buy CGC and CBCS books pre-slabbed, if the price is right, but I will likely never (or at least, very rarely) send my books in to them due to pricing schemes and ongoing problems they each seem to have. PGX will continue to get my business, unless and until things change significantly with the other two. Again, I’m not shilling here…but I am screaming from the rooftops to the fanboy hordes that they have long been savaging what has now remained the only reasonably priced, consistent and solid game in town.
On the other hand…maybe I SHOULD seek spokesman fees from PGX…hmmm….
Lol. Get paid.
Just for information purposes, not to incite a riot or anything, but I just not finally received my CBCS books back today. I am relieved and happy to finally have them home. They are officially 21 actual real life business days late. Even if you factor in the business days CBCS claims do not count, these books are 17 business days late, far beyond the 10-12 they have currently posted.
Did they give you a certificate for a percentage due to the lateness?
I’ve hear they offer 10% off next purchase, which is a pittance when you think about it, but I cannot personally confirm as all CBCS slabs I own were purchased second-hand. Either way, the only surprise I see here is that they managed to return as quickly as they did. Eager to send my next batch to PGX though, so I can remember what a timely return looks like 😉 (sorry…had to throw that in there…)
Lol it’s all good.
No certificates or coupons regarding any discount due to the delayed turnaround.
A copy of my invoice, an ad announcing their partnership with a company and two other ads. That was all.
Books look great, packaging was bomb-proof.
CGC was the best but now it’s time for CBCS to take over the number 1 spot for comic grading. CBCS holders are not wavy, do not have Newton effects, do not have shrinking Mylar, do not have pressing staples, etc. (but CGC does). CGC now out of collateral damage put inner wells back into the new holders but still Newton effects to some degree, and no one likes that rainbow shit. Further they are putting less pressure on the Mylar with the wells to reduce Newton effects but now many holders have the Mylar with the appearance of it shrinking or soon will be. CGC is going under with their latest case holder. A designer product is when all the holders are defective and they are all crappy new holders at CGC. One of the founders of CGC left to CBCS, obviously the talent that left CGC went to their competitor CBCS. Welcome to the new era of CBCS! Welcome!!!
bah old news, the CGC case issue has been dealt with. Their new case is super nice. Their processing times though are still awful, but most would still rather have a book in a CGC case , rather a competitors. Look at the prices of slabs being sold for the same book, the market speaks for itself. CGC is still the top Dog.
Sure if you like soap, rainbows, wavy comics, and shrinking mylars then the new CGC is for you (the old CGC left and doesn’t exist anymore). You will see, time will tell. When a company keeps forcing people to stick to their defective product people leave (those holders aren’t free and neither is the grading and alot of people have lost money due to CGC’s newest holders making the comics look like crap when in reality its not the comics but actually the crappy display holders that make the appearance of the comics look like crap). An example: Sure you might have a fancy nice expensive car but cover it in mud and people will say it looks like shit! People are starting to stay away (its obvious, look at this blog out of many or look at the fact that CGC erased its site where people were talking about their new holders….they stick to shit they will get shit especially when they try to quiet down the people/the paying customers that are pissed off). I myself will avoid CGC like the black plague. Give it a year and I predict CGC will fall lower than PGX. You will see, its already happening, just open your eyes to see. People are even saying maybe they should stick to mylar and plastic instead of holders to protect their comics….going backwards due to CGC’s new holders. Bottom line: CGC is taking the hit. If you don’t like it, go ahead and order your defective CGC holder today so that people can tell you something like…”wait your comic book is shrinking”…..what will you tell them…”its ok its CGC approved and they tell me the comic isnt affected”..your dirty soap comic will surely be the nicest dirty soap comic in two…….its a load of bull..in a slab all you can see is the cover and back cover and if it looks like shit because of the holder then why go to CGC when CBCS doesn’t have that malfunction. People should go where the flowers are booming not where the ship is sinking. …….the truth is the holder is crap and since CGC stands by the new holders, they are going down with the ship, CGC is on the titannic… which makes logical sound reason since they see the iceberg but saw it too late and rammed right into it. Listen to your presidents.
Man I dont care about the case, I care about my comics. I will go to whatever grading service properly protects my comics. Currently, the news and or rumors around the grape vine is that cgc is hurting comics with their new cases, which means I am staying away. pgx I don’t like since many sources believe they will give a higher grade for anything if you pay them a little extra incentive As for cbcs, they are too new of a company for the time being, as they started I think in 2014. No current reasonable options available. Looks like its back to plain card board and plastic for me in protecting my comics (a blast to the past, back to the 70s-90s for me). Plain and simple. The comics is what matters, screw the holders.
I will be staying away from CGC until they have everything sorted out definitively and lower their prices to be more competitive. I’ve always thought they were over-hyped, and the only reason why some people think they are any more credible is because the people who have bought into that keep telling each other that it is so. I have slabs by all three, and I have to say that there is little that is remarkable about CGC in comparison.
For Mr. Glasco I would add the following. I hear you about CGC, but in my experience, you couldn’t be any more wrong about PGX. Just like the fan-boy hype about CGC has always been at odds with reality, so to has the hate lumped on PGX. Grading too high? That’s not what I have seen. If you have the inclination, here is a little post I did on the experience ( https://sanerant7.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/recent-snags-4-modest-pgx-haul/ , and I will most certainly be using their services again. If their shipping costs were not so outrageous for me I would also use CBCS, but am very happy to stick with PGX as the only reasonable solution for me.
Cheers.
There is a recent video of a reslabbed comic in the new new cgc case with the well and from what I remember there was newton effects on superman’s face. LOL. Its NEWTON MAN!!!! SUPER!!!
I like PGX. I like saving money. Slabbing is slabbing. You can’t read a slabbed comic unless you free it from its holder prison. But if you need to slab then PGX it! I agree CBCS shipping is outrageous. CGC has had newtons forever. I never buy CGC online since you can not tell from scans if there are Newton effects. If you want CGC better go to the comic shop directly and examine comic in the slab personally before buying it especially if it’s an expensive comic. Best place to find slab trouble is to use EBay.
Missy, if you like giving money to crooks, then by all means – keep using PGX.
I don’t see how PGX are crooks any more than the other two. The one alleged incident that has created the bad rep for PGX has long been called out as a hoax.
I personally have not used PGX but likely will for my next batch of candidates. CGC has issues. CBCS completely ignores books they have while marketing heavy discounts to new CGC defectors. I will never give a dime to CBCS again. They missed my turnaround time by almost 2 months and made no amends whatsoever, all the while doing everything they could for CGC customers. Unacceptable.
I searched for “comic wavy CGC case” after I notice some of my signature series books looking wavy. This is the first page I clicked on, and after checking out this page and that video, I can confirm that I have books with wave damage that’s exactly like what’s being talked about here, and shown in that video.
The problem I think is these book can’t expand and contract inside the case. If anyone here has ever laid down laminate flooring, you’ll know that the boards need some breathing room, otherwise they get wavy and buckle. This is what I think is happening to these comics. I’m no expert, but I’m pretty sure paper expands and contracts same as wood does. I mean, paper is wood, after all.
The only way to avoid this wave damage is to store your slabs in ideal conditions. This is not possible for most people, and you’re gonna see a lot more people coming forward showing damaged books.
What sucks for me is, with the exception of a few of books, I only really buy CGC signature series books, so cracking my books out of the slab will kill any value that they have. And sending these books back to CGC to be re-slabbed in a flawed case is pointless, unless CGC changes their case design, which they absolutely need to do. CGC will be sued soon as someone with a high value book notices any damage. This is really bad for CGC. I certainly would not send anything to be slabbed by them at this point. I rather go to PGX or CBCS.
i have perchased hundred s of cgc books for reasale and lots of them are in the new cases and they are all stating to warp waiting for comicklink to come back to me do i send them back to comiclink or do i send them back to cgc to get them reslabbed