A readers CGC experience

I received the following message from Kevin W. who spoke to CGC today. Here is his experience
Just spent 20 mins on phone with CGC. Here’s what they said. The problematic slabbing technique that they used has been corrected and only was used for a limited number of weeks after they switched to new case.

They said they would reslab all books from that time period, with corrected technique, free of charge, and would refund all shipping and insurance charges as credits to CGC account. They said that all these incorrectly stabbed books would be processed with their expedited service and turned around as first priority status.

I asked about grades being lowered due to potential damage to books, they said they’ve had no instances of that happening and that they are just reencapsulating…

I asked about books in new cases, from the time period immediately after case changeover, that have not, yet, exhibited signs of waviness etc., but may, in the future “creep”. They said that all invoices are dated so they can tell which one are from early (bad) slabbing technique and the newly corrected process. They said to send them all back and they will redo them.
As I currently have 150+ books out to CGC for grading, due back in mid-late July, I asked if I can hold out on returning improperly stabbed books until I receive my current order so that I can reuse their double walled boxes again to return them in, and I asked if they would honor the reslabbing fix ongoing, into the coming months. They said yes, any books moving forward that predate the fix to slabbing technique would be fixed free of charge into the indefinite future.

I asked specifically what they did to correct the issue that caused this big mess. They weren’t very specific about how they corrected it, but alluded to a “process change” that assured “equal pressure”.

I asked what assurances they could give that the 150 or so books I have out there would not have these problems and I asked why I should trust them on the next batch of 215 or so I have ready to send in… They said emphatically that the process was corrected and that they don’t anticipate any future issues.

I’m frustrated and wary. I’ve had thousands of books certified both for resale and my personal collection. This is a big blow to my business. I’ve had to pull down dozens of auctions, take returns from customers who bought stuff many weeks ago, and do damage control with eBay buyers. The hassle of returning what now amounts to about 139 books, but maybe as many as 240 is daunting to say the least. I’m going to move forward and see how well they handle this. I’m hopeful that they are resolute in solving this and minimizing damage to their brand and customer loyalty. They have always done right by me. I will report back after all of this is resolved.

79 thoughts on “A readers CGC experience”

    1. First of all, let me just say that I do not grade anywhere near the level of Kevin W.. Wow.
      Second, I began grading with CBCS because of the lower barrier to entry. At the time, it was just easier to become a member of CBCS and the rates were (no longer) appreciably cheaper.
      I’ve liked their service. No complaints about their case, their turnaround times (still long like everybody else), their customer service/responsiveness. I’m sticking with the “little guy” and eagerly awaiting more functionality (i.e., a census, etc.).
      What I will say, is that any inkling I had to try CGC out to compare has been taken right out of the question by this monumental kerfuffle.
      If I were grading hundreds of books, I would not trust somebody twice on this one. Get those slabbed improperly reslabbed for free, then move on.

  4. I thought CGC was supposed to make some big announcement about all of this 2 days ago? And yet, nothing?

  6. anyone have issues from Wizard Con – Philly…. i feel like they did a ton of books in a short time…

  7. “I asked about grades being lowered due to potential damage to books, they said they’ve had no instances of that happening and that they are just reencapsulating… ”
    then why did they need to change the process???

    1. Yeah, gotta love the BS type response.. if I were on the phone with them and they said that, immediately I would of responded with.. “If it isn’t broke, then why fix it?” 😉

    2. That’s the part that set off my BS detector. Anytime there is a slew of public posts from individuals stating the same problems you are having, and you contact the company and they say “This is the first time we’ve heard of this…” or “We don’t have any reports about…”. eBay does this all the time. There are certain problems that repeatedly come up with their software and every time I report it, they act like no one has ever brought it to their attention… when I’d personally brought it to their attention every few months. They just choose to ignore it. I don’t personally use CGC (or any other grading service), but I know a lot of people who do. If CGC thinks we live in isolation and just take their word for it that no books have ever been damaged by their case problems, they’ve got another “think” coming!

    1. I dropped a 2 on Philly Wizard Con to try them about and if I recalled they said 2 months

  9. Man you guys are so quick to jump off the CGC boat because of this. CGC is still the most respected, best grading company their is and they will fix this issue. Don’t “move on” to another company just because of this lol, you think CGC is going to let their name and rep get tarnished because of this? They are fixing all of the cases for free, yeah its an inconvenience but so is waiting for a buyer to buy a CBCS comic on ebay lol, the time it takes waiting for that will outweigh the time it takes to get your book back. CGC will always sell higher and quicker than any other graded company. I have gotten well over 200 books graded by CGC and will continue to do so until CBCS starts selling faster and higher, which will never happen. Not to mention, CBCS labels look ugly as sin, the main reason I don’t buy them for my personal collection

    1. Exactly.
      I’m 100% CGC.
      Excellent market value, second to none. Great customer service. Fast turnaround times.
      Never had a problem until now. And they’re quick to fix the cases.
      Can’t argue with that 😉

    2. I’m actually on no professional grading bandwagon, I keep pretty much most of my comics free and raw! 😉
      But when I do buy a graded book, I don’t buy the slab, I buy the comic book. I can care less what the slab looks like as long as it protects the comic. If you don’t buy a CBCS graded book because of the way they look, if you ask me, you’re buying graded books for the wrong reason. 😉

      1. I honestly just like the presentation of the CGC label over CBCS. I buy CGC books for my personal collection mainly to guarantee the grade, even though I do recognize sometimes a 9.0 may look higher or lower than that, I still have the recognizable label that I know has value. For example, I have an Amazing Spider-Man #15 graded by CGC at a 7.0, I will never sell it but just knowing that if I ever needed to, or if I needed to put a value on it, I know its the top name in grading companies on the label. A CBCS has value don’t get me wrong, but if you had an auction of a CBCS collection vs CGC, the CGC will always be on top

        1. And that’s the problem I see.. people are then buying the slab over the comic. To each their own.. I buy comics, not slabs. I’ll buy CGC, CBCS.. or raw, but I make my own opinion on the comic itself and if I want it, not what it’s jailed in. 😉

      2. Yeah, maybe that’s why I don’t ride any particular bandwagon. I grade too few books to care enough to ride out CGC’s ridiculousness.

      3. You have the right attitude for a collector poyo! I can see why dealers prefer CGC over CBC though. More money even if it is only five percent or so adds up in volume pretty fast! I personally like CBCS better but know on average I may not get as much if I ever decide to sell. CBCS has been grading some insanely rare and valuable gold and silver keys since it started and that always helps to make it more legit over time. I do think down the road a bit CBCS and CGC will be on equal footing value wise.

      5. Wow, agentpoyo, I couldn’t have said it better myself. In my opinion, when you buy a slab, you are only guaranteed that the book was in that condition on the day it was graded. Nothing more. That was the original intent when this whole slab fiasco started.

      6. I’m with Poyo! Sometimes I wish this page had a “Like” button, lol. I made a similar comment on another thread about this. The comic book grading craze has changed the landscape of comic book collecting for some individuals; mostly only focusing on graded books to sit in cases, and they don’t even read comic books. Then the worry about the condition of the cases instead of being worried about the condition of the comics. You buy books sealed in cases so the book’s condition is set, but if the grading case gets scuff marks or a scratch, then that becomes what you are focusing on as a collector… plastic cases. 🙁 And on eBay I am constantly having to delete the pre-filled box for “certified grade” saying “No”, because it makes it sound like individuals grading their own comics are far inferior to grading companies doing it. Some of us have been grading our own comics for decades and can reliably give a professional grading opinion on a book. Our grade shouldn’t be “meaningless” just because it’s not in a CGC case. But eBay is really pushing CGC and the ten-digit grading scale. And now you have folks grading their own loose/raw books who must not know much about comics. I’ve seen some listed as 9.4 to 9.8 that literally have stains, spine splits, and major creasing. I hope nobody is gullible enough to fall for those, but they see the almighty “9.8” and the CGC correlation makes them think it’s a NM+ book; even when it’s not a grading company; because they don’t actually know much about comic book grades, just what the cases tell them the books are, lol.

        1. The WordPress App for phones and tablets has the “Like” functionality. It also seems if you login to comment, you can click “Like” when responding to replies.

      7. I don’t have a dog in the fight, but have been asking questions about grading services, and the process in general. I’ve considered getting books graded but didn’t know where to start. I have a BA #12 sitting in a long box right now raw that I paid cover for at my LCS when I was a kid. It’s not Mint, but it’s still a high grade. This book is the primary reason I ever considered stabbing a book.
        I’ve never bought (to resell) nor do I own any slabbed books. They look nice sure, but something about the process has always seemed wrong to me. I’ve been reading, watching, and seeing a lot of opinions on the matter in the last few weeks/month and I would say if I HAD to slab something today it would be CBCS. The cases appearance is aesthetic. It’s about the cases functionality and ability to do its job/purpose which is protect the comic. CGC isn’t doing that right now. Can they course correct and overcome this? Sure, but the damage has been done to the comics they’re supposed to protect and archive.
        As an outsider I wouldn’t trust them with my BA #12 at this point. I’d be looking for a company with no blemishes in their record and who could perform what they claim in protecting my book. I don’t know the history of CBCS, but I think someone mentioned they had problems when they started? Were those stabbing and damaging issues?
        Anyway, I guess it’s raw for me. I’m still trying to figure out the best way to keep those safe. I thought bagging and boarding was enough, now I learn that Polybags can destroy comics? Mylar is safer? I had no idea…

        1. The problem CBCS had at the beginning was their plastics supplier was using non-virgin plastic (recycled) and it would cause the case to shatter if dropped and potentially damage the books. The plastic they use comes in long sheets. when it is cut, there is extra plastic, the extra was melted and made into new sheets. They stopped all grading so they could fix the problem and move forward. It stopped grading for like 3 months. Caused long delays for a while afterwards as well. I had books in with them at the time to try them out and considered having them returned to me.

      9. Thanks for that info, Anthony. That only impresses me that they recognized a problem and shut it down till they fixed it. That could have killed them and been something they never recovered from. It speaks to their integrity.
        Maybe CGC didn’t believe they had a problem or it was as big as it has revealed itself to be. The fact they kept grading and slabbing in the face of mounting evidence also speaks to their integrity. They are trying to fix it, but at what cost?
        I think I’ll just stick to raw for now.

      10. I am so tired of this argument that “real” collectors don’t buy the slab they buy the book. What does that mean exactly? If you are buying if for the purposes of being able to smell it and read it, then you should never buy a CGC comic and the entire conversation is moot. I buy comics, I read them, and some will never get graded because I’d like to read them again one day. Anyone cracking open an Amazing Spider-Man 15 to read it, i’m sorry but that is just foolish. You can buy reprints and trades and digital comics to read the valuable ones, you can still be a true collector and comic fan and buy a graded book. If the argument is that these books get damaged in the new cases, then sure, I am all on board for making sure im not buying a book that says 9.0 but is damaged and looks like a 7.0 now. But stop with this pretentious “buy the book not the grade ” crap. If you buy CGC, you are buying the grade plain and simple, saying otherwise is crazy

        1. I think the argument being made was buying the slab not the book. I think he meant, and I don’t want to speak for anyone else, is that there shouldn’t be a difference in a CGC 7.0 Amazing Fantasy 15 and a CBCS 7.0 Amazing Fantasy 15. If I am following the argument correctly.

      11. Typo*** I meant Amazing Fantasy 15 not ASM 15, but my argument still applies

            1. I give you full permission to speak for me.. then it’s less typing for me. 😉

        2. If your going to buy a slabbed graded book, CGC, CBCS.. if they’re professional graded, you are still buying the comic book that someone was paid to grade, which in the end is still their opinion. One grader might think it’s a 9.0, another thinks it’s 9.2. It’s proven that if a grader is having a great day, it could affect his grades while one having a bad day takes his bad day out on the grading process. So I stand by my statement, if you buy CGC over CBCS or any other slabbed book because it’s CGC and you think they’re “Gold” compared to the rest, you are buying the slab and not the comic book. It should be the other way around if you ask me.

    3. Really? They are re-slabbing them yes but fixing them???? Not even close. They are sending books back with the same problems. And this is now the third of fourth time that that have “fixed” “non-problems”.
      I hate to break it to you but if they ain’t going back to something close to the original design then they ain’t fixing it.
      Also maybe someone should ask why their big customers are getting old holders as recently as this week? Geez if they get that what about preferential grades? Nope, can’t be possible.

    4. Up until this fiasco they were the most respected but the gap has definitely narrowed or even shifted in the last 2 months and will only get worse for them until they admit their mistakes, rectify the damage and solve the problem.

      1. True…They need to publicly admit this happened and own up that some comics were damaged. Fix the problems, pay for the damages and commit to doing their best that his never happening again. Owning up, apologizing and backing it up with action speaks volumes and can decrease anger pretty fast.

    5. Yes it’s quite amazing how big and reputable cgc got over the years. It almost makes me wonder how was running cgc all those years to make them so huge. I also wonder who their primary grader was all those years …oh wait! I DO KNOW WHO!! his name was Steve borock! PRESIDENT and PRIMARY grader of CGC until 2008!! Hmmm where have I heard that name before??? Oh I remember now!! He started another grading company called CBCS!! so any idiot can see, it doesn’t matter wether it’s cgc cbcs, call it whatever you want, STEVE BOROCK is the name that should be grading your books. When you go to a restaurant because they have great food, and the chef goes somewhere else to cook, do you keep going to that same restaurant because of the reputation it got for serving good food?? Of course you dont! You follow the chef!!

    6. Ok I get your point now, and to an extent I agree. But name recognition in an investment industry goes a long way as well. The core group of collectors know CGC, CBCS, PGX, and probably a few other comic grading companies. Then outside of the core group, you have collectors that still know CGC, CBCS, and PGX. Then you have another group outside of that that only know CGC because they really aren’t in the comic industry, but they want to buy the first appearance of that favorite character, and they want it graded, hence why I said CGC is the gold standard, the name goes synonimous with grading. That being said, I fully recognize that CBCS may be a superior product, no denying that. I personally think Annie’s All Natural Organic Mac N Cheese is superior to Kraft, but Kraft will always sell the most Mac N Cheese (I know, a reaching analogy but still you get the point). My entire reason for entering into this debate is to maybe make people not be so harsh and quick to throw CGC under the bus when they will fix it, they are fixing it (for free at that), and they still are at the top of the sales

      1. And I am hoping that people aren’t throwing them under the bus as well, just pointing out issues that collectors, speculators, and flippers are coming across. I totally get you Xerox, Razor Scooter, Kleenex argument though.
        Sent from my iPhone
        >

      2. I never threw them under the bus.. My initial response was just making people aware there’s alternatives. Like I said, I buy comics, not slabs. Sometimes the comics I buy just happen to be in a slab. 🙂

  10. I like cbcs over cgc and think cbcs is cheaper faster an a better product and is equal in resale value imo

    1. Nicholas, no offense, but where are you getting that from? I am actively buying and selling on ebay all the time and I rarely if ever see a CBCS for the same price as a CGC of the same comic and grade. Sometimes ill see a CBCS go for higher if the comic is positioned differently but out of 100 comics, maybe 1 CBCS will be on par with a CGC in terms of value. CGC is the gold standard, this small hiccup is minute in the grand scheme of their lengthy time grading comics

      1. CGC does command a higher price, but I can see that changing. Comics, like the stock market, are driven more by public opinion than by the things that really matter. Cgc has very strong brand recognition, and the chuckleheads that buy stuff on eBay probably never even think to search for cbcs.
        I grade through CBCS, but in much smaller quantities (like 20-30 per shipment). I’m impressed by sending 150 in one go with 215 on deck. As CGC charges on an increasing scale with the value of the comic (I’m guessing you’re not just modern flips like me), and guys on your level probably pay a quick turnaround premium to be first to market with some books (though henchgirl taking like two months paid off for me), you are probably paying 3-5 grand per shipment. I can imagine that’s pays off though, as I’ve heard from some shop owners that cgc gets a little more lenient with their grades on big shipments from their whales. That’s speculation though…
        Anyway, CGC was far from quick to deal with this, or transparent. They’ve definitely hurt their image (go read the Google plus page of cbsi), and the controversy is trickling down to the less informed collectors. Either way about it, CBCS was formed by top guys from CGC, so its not exactly like they’re amateurs. They dealt with their own problem when they first started, but unlike CGC, they didn’t keep grading books at the risk of damaging them.
        Most guys who buy comic books aren’t really on the level of this site and its readers though, so I’m sure CGC will still sell well for a while. While my CBCS listings never sell as fast as comparable CGC ones, they still sell. Further, the difference in selling prices (at least for me) is more in the tens of dollars than hundred, so my profit is still decent.

  11. I sent three books with CBCS to be graded they were.
    Monstress #1 signed
    Rick and Morty #1 B.A.M. var.
    Descender #1 EH b/w var.
    This was my first experience with grading my comics. If everything goes well I will do it again, and if CGC gets their situation with their cases straight I may give them a chance.

  12. How much does this service cost? I’m curious. I only have 1 cgc book that I got for Christmas.

    1. Their pricing schemes are complex. Your best bet is to visit the websites of the various companies and look at their pricing schedules.

  14. @ Kevin W..That is a very mature and professional attitude to take. Props for that! My personal preference is CBCS. However, If CGC fixes this issue I will purchase their books again and maybe even send them to be graded.

  15. A friend of mine, who’s business is selling slabbed books (and he deals with both companies), told me that if you’re slabbing for your personal collection, go CBCS. If you’re slabbing to sell, go CGC. The gap is slowly closing, but there’s still a gap.

    1. I would think no. Since they are using the serial number and just reslabing it doing the press would not effect the grade, since they are not looking for the grade of the book this time and just reholdering it.
      Sent from my iPhone
      >

      2. Well if there is waviness damage and they are just reslabbing it then they are just covering their ass by giving it the same grade when in fact it is not the same as when they originally graded it. This will be the KEY thing to watch, imagine if they admit their new process actually caused some damage to comics, how much would they have to compensate peeps? I’m sure that is the main reason why they are taking so long to admit/give a reason for this. By admitting some books were damaged, they open themselves up to a whole flood of litigation, and there were some pretty hefty books that may have been damaged. The next few weeks will be VERY interesting and crucial in their future. Think of it this way, they changed their cases and slabbing process due to their supplier not being able to fulfill their needs. If they didn’t feel threatened by CBCS, why not have the new supplier produce the same case and use the same slabbing procedure? Even if they now do that and have their new supplier create the same cases and use the old process to encapsulate books, they have to deal with the damaged books and more importantly, their damaged reputation. This will be an interesting next few weeks/months.

      3. Mike, that was my thought. If you consider how many high-dollar books CGC grades on a regular basis, since that is primarily what people are sending in to them, if the books were damaged by CGC’s process & no fault on the owner, that would make CGC responsible for the lost value between grades. But you would think CGC would have some kind of insurance against this kind of situation, since it could literally kill their business, and it had to be foreseeable that something could go wrong with changes to their process. And they didn’t implement it on a small scale, it was literally every book from that point forward for that period of time, and they do a heck of a lot of books per day…

        1. I believe they do, but they would only be responsible for up to your stated value. When I have shipped books out that are not very valuable, I have valued them up to $250 in case they get lost or damaged, but imagine you sent in a book valued at several thousand and you valued it at less trying to save money on grading (which they would catch and adjust) but your stated value for a $3000 book was $250, you would/should only get what you valued the book for.

  17. At this point I am only submitting anything to cbcs. I would imagine there are many others who will be doing the same thing. Could effect a value shift. There are still a lot of big dollar big baller collectors who are heavily invested in cgc that will herald cgc’s glory until the end, no matter how bad they screw up people’s books. Doesn’t make it a better service an reason enough for me to stay away. I buy the book, not the slab as well but if I’m getting something graded it is 100% cbcs.

    1. Vernon, a question, what happens if tomorrow CBCS ends up having some kind of grading screw up and for a month or two they ship books with a poor quality case. Are you going to then jump off CBCS and move to PGX? My point is why is everyone literally just hitting the dump button on CGC because of this, they have been the top dogs and for good reason for years, and a few months of this and people are ready to go somewhere else. To each his own and I’m not saying you shouldn’t do what you want, but I just want to be the advocate for a company that has been nothing but good to me

      1. Chris, I don’t think people are hitting the dump button but possibly the pause button. I know I am holding off on submitting anything until it has been cleared up. I use / have used both. My first CGC book I submitted was an All-Star Batman error variant Signature Series 9.8 signed by Jim Lee. It was a huge money maker for me. This was years ago.
        Sent from my iPhone
        >

      2. That makes sense, hitting a pause button for a few months until they resolve this seems like a logical thing to do. Unfortunately I just submitted a few dozen books a few weeks ago, so hopefully mine are in the new system of CGC slabbing that doesnt cause the issues

  18. Cgc’s Announcement….
    In April 2016, CGC introduced its newest generation holder to the hobby. For the vast majority of books, the new holder presented a stunning visual improvement. Its clean design with crystal-clear optics unleashed the natural color and vibrancy of comics, while its sturdier construction provided advanced durability.
    A small number of holders, however, were found to display a slight wavy appearance. In no instances did this slightly wavy appearance cause or reflect any damage to a book. Nonetheless, some collectors and dealers were understandably concerned.
    CGC strives to listen to its customers and provide products and services that exceed their expectations. While most customers felt that the new holder was a revolutionary improvement, some expressed a strong preference for the inner well of the previous holder. CGC carefully evaluated this feedback and concluded that a modification to the new holder provided the best long-term solution.
    The modified new CGC holder combines the best of both worlds: the slick look of the new holder and the time-tested inner well concept originally introduced by CGC 16 years ago and used with more than 3 million comics. Collectors will now enjoy the fresh label format, superior clarity and cutting-edge durability of the innovative new outer casing, along with the comfort of the familiar inner well design.
    This updated holder will be used on all submissions, including those currently at CGC, effective immediately. If any customers have a recent holder without the inner well concept that exhibits a wavy appearance, please contact CGC Customer Service at customerservice@cgccomics.com or 877-662- 6642, so that we can explain the free review and reholder process.
    We would like to thank all of our customers for their feedback and patience. We apologize for any inconvenience that they may have experienced. We are proud of the modified new holder and are confident that it will exceed the high standards that our customers have come to expect from CGC.
    Thank you,
    CGC

    1. Notice this key sentence ” If any customers have a recent holder without the inner well concept that exhibits a wavy appearance, please contact CGC Customer Service at”. Does this mean they are going to review and if the comic does not display the waviness, they won’t reholder it for free? I’m with CGC all the way, but I think they should offer free reholder on all books without the innerwell.

  19. Just received the following emailed statement from CGC:
    In April 2016, CGC introduced its newest generation holder to the hobby. For the vast majority of books, the new holder presented a stunning visual improvement. Its clean design with crystal-clear optics unleashed the natural color and vibrancy of comics, while its sturdier construction provided advanced durability.
    A small number of holders, however, were found to display a slight wavy appearance. In no instances did this slightly wavy appearance cause or reflect any damage to a book. Nonetheless, some collectors and dealers were understandably concerned.
    CGC strives to listen to its customers and provide products and services that exceed their expectations. While most customers felt that the new holder was a revolutionary improvement, some expressed a strong preference for the inner well of the previous holder. CGC carefully evaluated this feedback and concluded that a modification to the new holder provided the best long-term solution.
    The modified new CGC holder combines the best of both worlds: the slick look of the new holder and the time-tested inner well concept originally introduced by CGC 16 years ago and used with more than 3 million comics. Collectors will now enjoy the fresh label format, superior clarity and cutting-edge durability of the innovative new outer casing, along with the comfort of the familiar inner well design.
    This updated holder will be used on all submissions, including those currently at CGC, effective immediately. If any customers have a recent holder without the inner well concept that exhibits a wavy appearance, please contact CGC Customer Service at customerservice@cgccomics.com or 877-662- 6642, so that we can explain the free review and reholder process.
    We would like to thank all of our customers for their feedback and patience. We apologize for any inconvenience that they may have experienced. We are proud of the modified new holder and are confident that it will exceed the high standards that our customers have come to expect from CGC.
    Thank you,
    CGC

    1. Just posted it when I saw the email I received. Hard to update the website when you’re driving but thought it was important to post it

  21. Fuck CGC, I spent 400 on a comic graded by them. the comic was packed and sealed by them. When comic arrived a (Spiderman, first appearance of black cat) it looked very soiled. The centre of the cover had white spots on it looking a little like colonies of bacteria. Arrghh.
    Anyway, I soon discovered after dismantling (and devaluing) the hard plastic slab and then the inner plastic cover (which the comic was sealed into) that this inner plastic cover was what was soiled. Meaning the assholes at CGC packed and sealed this very expense comic in a heavily soiled plastic cover. Unprofessional, disrespectful, lazy ass fucking employees over at cgc can fuck themselves, rot in hell assholes.

  22. The whole slabbing craze is a con. whoever invented it is laughing so hard at all the schmucks!

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